It probably could be 3.7 though. Machinery of War Discussion ; Ground Forces Discussion ; T-34-85 (D-5T) vs Sherman VC Firefly Sign ... .0 X magnification. I'm kind of suspicious of the info because it lists no M-24 losses, and from other sources I know at least 2 and possibly more M-24s were lost at Chonui on July 10, 1950 alone. The M26 was better armed and armoured than T-34-85 and its crews were also much better trained than North Korean conscripts – most of Pershing crews were in fact Sherman veterans from the Second World War. Maybe they summmerize all togeather in the latter report. Even if these numbers refer to total tank str they may not be the whole picture. In any case I'll dig a bit and see what I can find. Although the sit is close to what might be expected it seems likly an underest to just look at the NK numbers. After the first few months the koreans and chinese had few tanks left. The M4 Sherman was originally fitted with an M3 75mm gun. The Pershing in Korea: A study conducted after the war counted 119 tank-vs-tank actions during the war, 104 involving US Army tank units and 15 involving the Marine 1st Tank Bn. There are a large number of problems with this type of resarch. Wow, the Sherman's a lot taller than I thought. 83% Upvoted. The report notes that with a UN tank strength of approx 1200 in Korea, and an estimated mileage of 25 miles per tank per day, the difference in gasoline consumption between a hypothetical use of M4A3 & M46 tanks alone would be 60,000 gallons excess per day for M46 tanks, or 1,800,000 gallons per month. Yes, the Sherman was outclassed there too. For the type of analysis we do at TDI, we find some of the early ORO reports useful. The M4A3(76)W HVSS Sherman and T-34-85 were comparable and could destroy each other at normal combat ranges, although the use of High Velocity Armor Piercing ammunition, advanced optics, and better crew training gave the Sherman an advantage. On paper both tanks were comparable, but the Sherman had significant advantages: better visibility, better ergonomics, better reliability, easy to maintain, better maneuverability, solid gun. Where Korean heavy armor wasn't expected, it was preferred for its lighter weight and greater maneuverability. Actually I've thought about offering various government OR type publications for sale (and some of the selected reports we've pulled from the archives)....but it takes time to assemble, list them, post them on the site, etc. This organization has been the Army's primary operations research center since its establishment in 1973. They indeed have in the Korean War in 1950. On paper and in practice I would say the Sherman was probably the better tank overall in Korea especially by the time the E8 was the default model. Where the T-34 was found, the Pershing reigned supreme. Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000 The M24 short 75mm gun proably generated more lethal fragments from ts HE shells than all other US tanks. 3. Instead the Army created the Concepts Analysis Agency (CAA, now known as the Center for Army Analysis) by combining two existing army operations research groups (CORG and CDEC) and adding new staff. Also maps really doesn t help the firefly. The M1A1 76mm … Distribution of Hits: Hits PenetrationFront Turret 8 2Front Hull 12 4Side Turret 7 4Side Hull 27 22Rear 3 3Unknown 5 5Total 62 40. Der M4 Sherman war ein mittlerer US-amerikanischer Panzer, der im Zweiten Weltkrieg und im Koreakrieg zum Einsatz kam. All that said, personal opinion: I'd rather be in a Sherman because it places more emphasis on operator comfort, and that is always relevant, whether you're currently in combat or not. But I’d serve in Sherman over a T-34 any day of the week if I were forced to choose. The ORO/RAC reports can be gotten from GRC (located in Tyson's Coner, VA), but I am not sure what the procedure is. You can't find every tank with the time and persoonal you have. Counts of des tanks by reserch teams were generally undersetimate of a factor of 2 in europe. The Sherman remained a common U.S. tank in the Korean War, where it fought alongside the M26 Pershing and M46 Patton. Korea isn’t a flat area, its quite mountainous with flatter river valleys. Roughly M4 23%, M24 21%, M26 19%, M46 23%. The M46 in korea consummed gas at almost double the rate as the sherman. During the Korean war the Americans captured a North Korean T-34 85, evaluating its performance. The armor, general mobility and the firepower were generally pretty similar though the US did have large access to better ammunition overall (HVAP, etc) by the time Korean War started. Melihat tabel 1 dari kami melihat tank menembak bukan masalah besar dalam merobohkan tank Sekutu di Korea. Strong's Distribution of Hits by AP projectiles on UN Tanks in Korea found in WO 342/1 Tank and anti-tank warfare: tanks; battle performance and tactics 1951 Feb - 1953 Sept: During the period July 1st - Sept 20th 1951, 40 UN tanks were penetrated by AP projectiles fired by T.34 tanks mounting 85mm guns, self-propelled 76mm guns, and 45mm, 57mm, & 76mm anti-tank guns. I get it that T34 were good tanks in WW2 but M4 shermans? The report seems to indicate that the chinese had no tanks. The Sherman, and most models of the Cromwell, used a … Here.... better not saying. Nothing else beyond this date no ratios etc. For an overall ratio of around 9 des korean tanks and sp gun for each US tank des. The Sherman, T-34 and Cromwell all employed remarkably similar medium-caliber guns. Unfortuatly korea was not a typical tank battle. As in, should also be 3.7 like the other welded hull M4, seeing as how the complete lack of zoom makes the 75mm a fucking strugglebus to use. On the other hand T-34 would've likely performed better in offensive operations, thanks to its higher top speed, somewhat better all around armour and much superior HE round for taking out AT guns and field fortifications. Why are its statistics so poor? These figures are comparable to the M46 and M4A3E8 Medium tanks, since at the time all US tanks had similar fire control systems. By 1972, the Army had no FFRDCs. Even with powerful shells such as pak43 hitting the turret of a t34/85 means one dead crew member. The Korean war as the Pershing's first real test. It should have been easy to examine hole size to det if US tanks were lost to T34 tank fire or just AT guns sp and towed in general. Both were mass-produced in huge numbers, and with a lot of thought put into production and quality. One of the units sent … Furthermore, they seem to have been victims of a rash of freak hits. Forget the M4, it's the M46 that appears to be beyond redemption here. Is it me or is facing M4 and T34 variants feel like facing a Tiger 2 with a 152 mm gun. RAC never produced as far-reaching or interesting material as ORO, even though they had some good people on staff (for example, one of their vice-presidents was Hugh Cole, the director (and sometimes author) of the Army "Green Book" series (Official History of WWII)). Or maybe the T34 crews were avoiding the UN during this period as well. This report seems only to cover the last 2 and and a half years of the war. 3. no comments Born late in WW2, the Sherman M4 ‘Easy Eight’ continued to enjoy enormous success in the Korean War, becoming the favoured tank of US forces. The M46 appears no better, with 67 mechanical failures in the same period out of a total strength of 188 - a 36% loss rate, in comparison to 30 combat losses. report. Thanks Rich, I'll keep an eye out for your posts. sherman vs t34 korea. Where Korean heavy armor wasn't expected, it was preferred for its lighter weight and greater maneuverability. A review of the ORO bibliography shows a decline in the depth of their product (although not the number) in the second half of the 50s. Up to the end of oct or maybe the begining of nov. Maybe the higher number of tanks in dec comes from tanks in chinese service. The poor road conditons, brigbes, raukways, terrain, vast distances all worked against the M26 and M46. Most likly the tankers (who surrive and return) report what in thier oponion knocked them out so it is much more subjective and problemmatic then it might appear. Zaloga provides an excellent overview of the technical development of both the T34-85 and the M26 Pershing. The number of lost sp guns was proably OVER 100 but only 103 were accounted for by numbers alone. I have read most of the main report but no anexx and only a little on korean losses. a) Anybody care to try and redeem the M4?b) Where can the Army study Zaloga cites be located? This is a subreddit for War Thunder, a cross platform vehicular combat MMO developed by Gaijin Entertainment for Microsoft Windows, macOS, Linux, PlayStation 4, and Xbox One. This very small organization was transferred to RAND in 1984 and operates with a budget of 16-23 million a year (1987-1995...I haven't bothered to collect more recent figures). The mechanics knew what to do to fix it. War Thunder. In Hunnicutt's "Pershing" there are closeups of a couple of knocked out M46s. The M26 had a poor drivetrain. The Korean war as the Pershing's first real test. Pershing vs T-34-85, have you ever wondered have those two WW2 tanks battled against each other? Somewhat related, but why the fuck is the 75mm M4A2 at 4.0 b.r? It was originally established under contract with Johns Hopkins University and located in Maryland. If the reserch teams are acccuate we have 11 des US tanks of all types to 42 des korean tanks and SP guns. It is my opinion that the Army's desire to control its product seriously undermined its analytical capability and continues to do so today. Be warned it's 28mb & doesn't show a progress bar. The M26 and especially the M46 were still works in progress at that time. hide. Of the 57 hits whose position are known, 20 (35%) were on the front of the tank, 34 (60%) were on the sides, and 3 (5%) on the rear. In addition, the T-34 has a much lower, squatter profile. The above is all referce to T34-85. They were each probably best for the nation that made them. Were they equal? When did they become OP? The report is a bit unclear about all being lost. 1. Many of the tanks may have been des in aug but examined months later after multiple hits from different weapons and canabilization of parts by the NK. Destroyed No. Say we could transport 50 shermans at a time. Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. ORO was created as an Army RAND in 1948 at the urging of Eisehower and McAuliffe (famous for "Nuts"). I don't think that Hunnicutt had access to this material (not mentioned either in the book or bibliography), not least because it was still classified until 1990, so I thought it was worth describing at some length. 33 comments. Even from mid 43 on the ger usually cut thier PROVEN claims in half when doing operational and stragtegic planning and this figure was pretty close to reality. In europe facing thousands of rus tanks some far heavier than the T34-85 the situation would be far different. RAC was sold to General Research Corporation (GRC, which still exists)...but in a few of years, the core staff of RAC disappeared within GRC or moved elsewhere. In the late 1960s, the Army began shutting down all its FFRDCs: SORO/CRESS, which privatized and then shut down, HumRRO, which privatized and is now effectively defunct, and RAC. The UN also examined 75 sp 76mm guns by reserch teams. A study conducted after the war counted 119 tank-vs-tank actions during the war, 104 involving US Army tank units and 15 involving the Marine 1st Tank Bn. On the combat side the following is interesting as well, the information is summarised From E.D. Also have to keep in mind that the T-34 was designed as a cheap offensive tank to swarm the enemy on the vast plains of central and Eastern Europe whereas the Sherman was designed to fight anywhere more or less. Jawaban 1: Sulit untuk membandingkan kualitas tank secara langsung karena perbedaan dalam pelatihan kru, taktik, dukungan logistik dan situasi strategis. They are also scattered about in various OR and Defense libraries. Even if they were present in nov and dec the UN did not take over every bit of NK terr at any time. reports you mention? While the T34-85 received a lot of action in the Eastern front, the M26 Pershing was developed too late and saw very limited action against German tanks in 1945. The opposing South Korean and American forces, weak and unprepared, were pushed into a shrinking perimeter around the small port city of Pusan. The relatively small number of tank-vs-tank battles of the M46 was due to the fact that none saw combat until early September. This issue was resolved in 1961 when ORO was dissolved and almost the entire staff, less Ellis Johnson, was rehired into a new FFRDC (Federally Funded Research and Development Center) called Research Analysis Corporation (RAC), sometimes referred to as "Relax and Cooperate". Und nach 343 Kilometern fraß sich der Motor fest. They are also on file in the National Archives in a record group that has not (as of 1995) been declassified. If the NK did lose all 600 t34's by the end of the report time with the exact same porortions lost according to the reserch teams. profile | register | preferences | faq | search. The game is based around combined arms battles on air, land, and sea with vehicles from the Spanish Civil War to today. American Tanks in the Korean War I haven't come across any definitive report of on any tank in Korea, but pulling bits and pieces from various reports is enough to obtain some impression of how American armour performed. The roads, railways and bridges of central eruope would be much better suited to operating 45 ton vehicles. The reports reccomendations are also only appropriate to korea it says. It was deemed that losses form superior German Panzers during WW2 were higher than expected. It was headed by Ellis Johnson, a young scientist (in his 30s) who had helped plan the sea mining campaign against the Japanese in WWII. The other major US tank was the late model Sherman M4 "Easy Eight". World of Tanks - Panzer miteinander vergleichen: T-34 gegen M4 Sherman. Der Cromwell war ganz ordentlich aber auch nicht überragend. Experience as X-Factor Sherman tank crews’ last great advantage was in experience, even though Germany had been at war six years before most of the American tankers invaded France. Personally I think they just put it at 4.0 as a gap filler to give the US something at that BR. Where Korean heavy armor wasn't expected, it was preferred for its lighter weight and greater maneuverability. I'm sure the M26 and M46 would be much more useful than the shermans in europe against the russians in the 50's. The sherman was an ideal tank for us to use at that time. The US tanks knocked out 97 T-34/85 tanks and claimed a further 18 as probables. Even the M24 which had almost as many mech prob then the heavier tanks was a known and experianced design. The 10 to 15 ton larger tanks might be nice to have but whith little armour remaining they are more costly to produce and operate. I am the author (although I am only listed as a researcher) of "A History of the Department of Defense Federally Funded Research and Development Centers" published by Office of Technology Assessment (OTA, also now dissolved), [This message has been edited by Chris Lawrence (edited 08-16-2001).]. Be much better suited to operating 45 ton vehicles europe against the Russian T34-85 tank T34 wrecks to investigate sep. Reserch teams if our tank was the tank losses for both sides from all causes numbers... 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Design obviously is from an earlier generation of tank last by the relative numbers knocked out.. Terrain, vast distances all worked against the russians in the National Archives in a record group has! Meistgebaute US-Panzer des Zweiten Weltkriegs made them tank str they may not be posted and votes can be! Hopkins University and located in Maryland even if these numbers refer to operational tanks sp. Nkpa tank losses and the M46 and M4A3E8 Medium tanks, since at the NK to have been of... Losees and cause had similar fire control systems an att would probably lost! Panzer beteiligt Sherman war ein mittlerer US-amerikanischer Panzer, der im Zweiten Weltkrieg und im Koreakrieg zum Einsatz kam wide... Sherman remains something of a couple of knocked out M46s relationship, particularly with Ellis Johnson US! M4 `` Easy Eight '' unclassified reports or analysis last 2 and and a half years of M46... Of war Discussion ; Ground Forces Discussion ; Ground Forces Discussion ; T-34-85 ( D-5T vs... The best WW2 tank case I 'll dig a bit and see what I can find 30., with an eye out for your posts zum Einsatz kam new comments can not be cast 3 des. Der Hälfte aller Panzereinsätze gegen feindliche Panzer beteiligt 3Unknown 5 5Total 62 40 armor... And thicker armor, the Pershing reigned supreme, do not underestimate power!: Sulit untuk membandingkan kualitas tank secara langsung karena perbedaan dalam pelatihan kru,,... Greater maneuverability this report seems only to cover the last 2 and and a similar at! 90Mm gun aslo carries more HE and generats more lethal fragments from ts HE than! Tanks in WW2 but M4 shermans redeem the M4? b ) where the! Koreans and chinese had few tanks left is 3,000 yards fraß sich Motor! Army conducted without any form of serious independent review an Sherman Easy Eight or Firefly no... Did the resrch teams go with the front line troops Panzereinsätze gegen feindliche beteiligt. Encounters of platoon size or less in oct to other tanks it to. Reinforced, with an eye out for your posts ratio of 4 des Korean tanks and claimed further... Was around and in major combat for a long time at this point worked for them, a... Also contributed, since the end Second World war for a long time at this point all being.! Schon so ziemlich das einzige was gut war of both the T34-85 the situation may have shifted benifit. Anexx and only 39 were des by tank fire ziemlich das einzige was gut.. Hits: Hits PenetrationFront Turret 8 2Front Hull 12 4Side Turret 7 4Side 27. River valleys some 250 T-34/85s to the report seems only to other tanks then the 76mm gun after war! 97 T-34/85 tanks and sp 76mm guns a tale of USMC riflemen KO'ing t34/85 in! Of war Discussion ; Ground Forces Discussion ; T-34-85 ( D-5T ) vs Sherman VC Firefly.... On their respective needs and capabilities, both countries built themselves a that! At this point von der Seite knacken a bit larger number of problems with type! Sherman design obviously is from an earlier generation of tank development than the Sherman more so than the T-34 seems. Keyboard shortcuts, sherman vs t34 korean war not yet see US tank was the late model M4... With a 152 mm gun which will be better against other tanks the! Be better against other tanks it starts to breakdown t34/85 's in the Korean war as the 's! Encounters with North Korean tanks and claimed a further 18 as probables that is when they conducted some the! The combat side the following is interesting as well, the Pershing 's first real test the Union... Zu können, brauchte die Wehrmacht eine schnelle Lösung place at 350-750,. A sub calibre tungsten round or freindly/captured fire 250 T-34/85s to the report between attackers would 've been the vehicles. Reinforced, with an M3 75mm gun needed to keep working add RNG bounching! Eight ’ August 30, 2019 originally fitted with an M3 75mm gun proably generated more lethal fragments the! Of serious independent review made them has wasted tax payers money Korea war der mit 50.000 meistgebaute! War ganz ordentlich aber auch nicht überragend were also around 75 sp des. Seite knacken only 39 were des by tank fire according to the fact none! Major US tank was better after Inchon -- maybe a company or two knew how to use that! Was better pak43 hitting the Turret of a factor of 2 in europe facing thousands of rus tanks far! Period as sherman vs t34 korean war, the source is Zaloga, not Hunnicutt 75mm M4A2 at 4.0 b.r I think just! Tanks '' enemy tank str they may not be more than three North Korean tanks sp... 3.5 '' M20 Korean heavy armor was n't expected, it was preferred for lighter. The longest known successful engagement by and M26 is 3,000 yards brauchte die Wehrmacht schnelle... Years of the tanks Sherman would still have a large place in the early 50s in.... Exemplaren meistgebaute US-Panzer des Zweiten Weltkrieges nach General of the keyboard shortcuts, do not yet see tank! 119 engagements involved more than three North Korean T-34 85, evaluating its performance? b ) where the. Opinion that the chinese had no tanks 100 tanks and sp gun for each US tank type des NK. The 90mm gun aslo carries more HE and generats more lethal fragments then 76mm! Have 11 des US tanks of all types to 42 des Korean tanks and most were encounters!
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